Episode 133: The SPD and Its Foreign Policy Challenges
Hubertus Heil
Member of the Bundestag (SPD)
Hubertus Heil has been a directly elected Member of the German Bundestag for the Social Democratic Party (SPD) since 1998 and currently serves on the Committee on Foreign Affairs. Within his parliamentary group, he acts as rapporteur for trade and technology policy.
Prior to this, he served as Federal Minister of Labor and Social Affairs for two legislatures. From 2005 to 2009 and again from June to December 2017, he held the position of SPD General Secretary.
Jeff Rathke
President of AGI
Jeffrey Rathke is the President of the American Institute for Contemporary German Studies at the Johns Hopkins University in Washington, DC.
Prior to joining AICGS, Jeff was a senior fellow and deputy director of the Europe Program at CSIS, where his work focused on transatlantic relations and U.S. security and defense policy. Jeff joined CSIS in 2015 from the State Department, after a 24-year career as a Foreign Service Officer, dedicated primarily to U.S. relations with Europe. He was director of the State Department Press Office from 2014 to 2015, briefing the State Department press corps and managing the Department's engagement with U.S. print and electronic media. Jeff led the political section of the U.S. Embassy in Kuala Lumpur from 2011 to 2014. Prior to that, he was deputy chief of staff to the NATO Secretary General in Brussels. He also served in Berlin as minister-counselor for political affairs (2006–2009), his second tour of duty in Germany. His Washington assignments have included deputy director of the Office of European Security and Political Affairs and duty officer in the White House Situation Room and State Department Operations Center.
Mr. Rathke was a Weinberg Fellow at Princeton University (2003–2004), winning the Master’s in Public Policy Prize. He also served at U.S. Embassies in Dublin, Moscow, and Riga, which he helped open after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Mr. Rathke has been awarded national honors by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, as well as several State Department awards. He holds an M.P.P. degree from Princeton University and B.A. and B.S. degrees from Cornell University. He speaks German, Russian, and Latvian.
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The center-left Social Democrats are the junior coalition partner in Friedrich Merz’s government, but they hold two of the most important portfolios for implementing Germany’s security policy revolution known as the “Zeitenwende”—finance and defense. On this episode of The Zeitgeist, Member of the Bundestag and former Minister of Labor and Social Affairs Hubertus Heil discusses the SPD’s stance on Russia and Ukraine and Germany’s efforts to strengthen the Bundeswehr, including the thorny issue of growing the armed forces and the potential role of conscription.
Host
Jeff Rathke, President, AGI
Guest
Hubertus Heil, Member of the Bundestag (SPD)
Transcript
Jeff Rathke
I’m delighted to have listeners with us again today for another episode of The Zeitgeist. Our guest today is Hubertus Heil. Thanks for being with us.
Hubertus Heil
Nice to meet you. Thank you.
Jeff Rathke
Hubertus Heil is here in Washington. He is a member of the Bundestag and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. It’s in that capacity that he’s visiting Washington, but he is no stranger to the United States. Hubertus Heil, I think you said you first visited at age 16, which was a couple of decades ago.
Hubertus Heil
In the 80s, late 80s.
Jeff Rathke
He has been a member of the Social Democratic Party for a long time. He has been a member of the Bundestag since 1998, so, twenty-seven years. He has held senior positions in the Social Democratic Party, including as Secretary General and deputy leader. He was for seven years the Minister of Labor and Social Affairs in the German government under Chancellor Merkel and also under Chancellor Scholz, whose term ended earlier this year. He brings a really deep experience working with his counterparts in the United States but also in party politics. That gives us a great opportunity to talk today.
I wanted to start by talking about Russia and Ukraine, because this is an issue where, on the one hand, the divergence between the United States and its European allies has been obvious since Donald Trump took office. The United States hasn’t quite broken with its European allies, but it is not requesting new funds to provide military support to Ukraine. It has been pushing the Europeans to take over responsibility for military supplies and other support to Ukraine. Donald Trump has been flirting with some kind of a reset or reconciliation and realignment of U.S. policy toward Russia. This puts Germany in a difficult position, but also in the Social Democratic Party this has been hotly debated. I wonder if you could give us your perspective on how you look at Russia, the relations with Russia, and how that looks inside the SPD?
Hubertus Heil
Thank you for that question, because I think the SPD is quite clear on this after the Russian aggression against Ukraine. Still, our position is that Putin destroyed the European peace order. It’s not just a question of sovereignty to support Ukraine as long as it’s needed. It’s also a question of security for my country and for us as Europeans. We are still talking about that Putin was not only violent against the European peace order but to international law. Everybody wants peace in my party, in my country, all over the world. But it has to be a peace with security, that is not a dictatorship peace at the end of the day. That is why we have to, as Europeans and as Germans, support the Ukrainian government to make sovereign decisions. I remember this meeting—before the Anchorage appointment of Mr. Putin and President Trump—of the European leaders. It was very important, and we supported as Social Democrats Chancellor Merz in his position of keeping contact with the United States and keeping them involved for the future, especially talking about security guarantees. We need a ceasefire in Ukraine and a path to peace. But there hasn’t been progress from Mr. Putin in the last weeks. There is a debate about the future also in my party, as you recognized, but the big majority of the party is quite clear, it is for the time being and it is also important for the future that the idea of the Zeitenwende will last. That means we have to support Ukraine as long as it’s necessary, and we have to invest more in our security.
Jeff Rathke
We’ll come to the investment in security in a second, but I wanted to follow up on one aspect of that. We are talking on Friday, September 5th. Yesterday, on September 4, there was a big meeting convened in Paris by French President Macron, and the topic of discussion was what a peacekeeping or security presence and security guarantees for Ukraine might look like if a ceasefire or other settlement is achieved. That’s a big if, because, as you pointed out, Vladimir Putin hasn’t shown any interest in ending his war on Ukraine. How do you see the question of a German role in the future if there is either a ceasefire or some other settlement?
Hubertus Heil
I have to be frank: I’m not informed in detail about the talks that took place in Paris. I’m convinced that the German role for the future, if there will be a ceasefire, is especially in supporting other partners and strengthening the Ukrainian army itself. Armament production will be important. It is very important that there is the ability to defend in the future. I think this is the most important thing for the future. I know that in Ukraine, the question of security guarantees is heavily debated because they have historical experiences with the Budapest Memorandum [in 1994], which when it came to the aggression against Ukraine wasn’t very effective. It’s important to not just talk about what our ideas of security guarantees are but to talk to the Ukrainian government. For the public, the most heavily debated question is that of boots on the ground of other armies. I think in reality, the most important thing is to strengthen Ukraine itself and its army.
Jeff Rathke
This is maybe a transition point to the other topic about defense and security and Germany’s policy. There is no country that understands better how Russia fights wars than Ukraine, and Ukraine has shown a remarkable ability to sustain and update its own defense industry in wartime. This is knowledge and experience that is crucial for Ukraine, defending its sovereignty and its existence as a state. But it is also quite important, it seems, for other Europeans, not just because Ukraine is defending Europe by defending itself but what Europeans can learn and benefit from collaborating with Ukraine is also quite important.
Hubertus Heil
That’s totally true, because we not only have the attacks against Ukraine militarily, but also hybrid attacks, for example, in the Baltic Sea or toward the digital infrastructure of European and Western countries. We have to have a strong relationship and be able to learn. On the other hand, it’s not just important that the Europeans are in for security guarantees. We have to find a way—and talks here in Washington have been important and in Paris—to give a clear message to the United States that they have to be in for their own interests and for our common security. Because of the capabilities the U.S. has, it’s a question of whether we help Ukraine to support the army with technologies but also the question of intelligence and digital infrastructure. We have to join forces between Ukraine, the European NATO states, and the United States of America.
Jeff Rathke
With respect to Germany’s own programs for strengthening its defense and European defense, the government of Friedrich Merz has placed a high emphasis on increasing defense spending. There were well-known commitments made at the NATO summit in The Hague earlier this year. Even before taking office, there was a cooperative effort by Olaf Scholz and the parties in the Bundestag with Merz’s CDU and the CSU to liberalize the so-called debt brake and make it possible for Germany to borrow money if needed to increase its defense spending. I think this has been a remarkable change compared to previous years. How confident are you and what is your role and what is the view of your party on how to ensure that that money is spent quickly and effectively? Should Germany be trying to replace the capabilities the United States provides for European security to be better able to deal with a situation where the United States’ position is unpredictable?
Hubertus Heil
First, the secretaries or ministers who are responsible for defense and finances are Social Democrats. They are Lars Klingbeil, the finance minister and vice chancellor, and Boris Pistorius, the minister of defense. They are working hard daily so that the money in the budget is used usefully. We have to speed up the development to strengthen the Bundeswehr. There are a lot of laws that have to pass. It’s hard work in the government to realize this, no question. There are the NATO aims that we talked about. Thus, we have to do our work, and we have to talk about the questions of more integration in NATO and the abilities of NATO. It’s also about strengthening our defense industry in Germany with other European partners and cooperation with other countries. It’s hard work.
At the end of the day, for Germany, it’s important that we convince our citizens that this will work. That’s why we not just have to talk about strengthening our security, defense, and army but strengthening our economy and having social cohesion in our country. If we don’t do this, populists will play us off one against each other. That’s not a good thing. If you lose an election and a populist wins with sentences like, “you give all the money to Ukraine or the army, and there’s nothing for healthcare,” this is poison for our society. We have to talk not just about foreign and security policy but also have to do the right things for more growth in our country and we have tosecure social security to go this way, and that’s important. At the end of the day, we have to be realistic. Looking at the Bundeswehr and the other European armies, and looking at capabilities of the U.S. military, it will take some time to be stronger in Europe. That’s why we must join forces and not say we can do it overnight, that we can manage the situation on our own. We have to work together and that’s why it is in our interest to talk to the U.S. government very frankly about that. We have to work together and not one against each other.
Jeff Rathke
One of the things that Germany intends to do is to dramatically expand the size of the armed forces. Right now, there are around 180,000 soldiers, sailors, and airmen in the Bundeswehr. That will grow by at least 60,000 under the current plans. How to do that is a challenge, and so this fall the Bundestag is going to be working on a law that would make military service more attractive. To adopt what is referred to as the Swedish model, which falls short of conscription but actively engages all the young people, especially young men reaching service age, to inform them about the possibility of joining the armed forces, and to try to recruit people. This bill is a little controversial within the coalition, as I understand, because there are some who think it doesn’t go far enough, that it should create the structures that would be necessary if the volunteer effort is insufficient and there needs to be conscription, some kind of obligatory military service. How does that look to you, and what’s the sentiment in the SPD?
Hubertus Heil
Conservatives and Social Democrats have the coalition agreement, and this is the right way to do it. As you mentioned, the role model is the so-called Swedish way that invites young people to join the army. We have to set incentives to serve in the army, like education incentives or getting a driver’s license. That’s an important thing for young people in Germany because it’s quite expensive to get a driver’s license. I think we have to try and see if incentives are the right way. It can work if you do it right and quickly. To have an obligation overnight isn’t possible because it takes some time to have the compounds, the armaments, and the recruiters and trainers in the army. We have to move step-by-step. We try it this way with incentives and invitations, and the infrastructure has to be found, because the conservative defense minister destroyed it some years ago—we did have an obligation some years. I hope it works. If it doesn’t work in some years, we have to make a new decision. It could be an obligation then, but if an obligation isn’t necessary to reach these aims you mentioned and the amount of soldiers needed, I think this is the right way. I think the solution in the coalition agreement is very pragmatic and the right way, and I support Minister Pistorius in that way.
Jeff Rathke
How many years do you think it will take to assess whether these efforts to expand the Bundeswehr on a voluntary basis have been successful? Is that something that could happen again during this legislative period, before this Bundestag finishes its work?
Hubertus Heil
I don’t think so. It will be a question for the next [legislative] period. We are talking about three, four, or five years. But I think it can work. Generally, the German attitude, also on this file, should not ever be “Oh, what do we do if this doesn’t work?” Just have another spirit that could be, “let’s make it work.” It’s not that young people in Germany are not interested. But you have to make it very clever and, once again, the idea, which I say as a former Secretary for Labor, of combining the service with qualification for careers for a qualified labor force in Germany is a good idea. Giving young people, if they do something for the security of our country, a chance for a good career is a very good idea. In America, we would talk about ideas like a GI bill for receiving a university education or vocational training, and I think this is a good and pragmatic way. I’m sure it’s possible to win enough young people to serve in our army.
Jeff Rathke
Last question before we close, and that is about the relationship between Germany and the United States. You have been a part of that relationship at a senior level in different capacities over the years. You’ve just spent several days here in Washington talking to a wide variety of people. What is your sense of the opportunities and the future of that relationship, acknowledging that the relationship has been characterized by a fair amount of friction over the last few months as the Trump administration has changed course, including in its policies toward Europe?
Hubertus Heil
I’m a convinced transatlantic guy, and I will be, because I’m convinced that we need each other. There are several issues we had and have and will have different interests, but there are common interests and common values between the societies. For the time being, I’m worrying about some developments we have had. We have economic questions, especially the trade and tariff debate, and if we can’t find a way for fair trade, it will have a negative economic impact on both sides of the Atlantic. Inflation in the United States hitting jobs in Germany isn’t a good idea, so we have to work on this. Secondly, we have to talk, have to keep in touch, even with politicians who are not like-minded. This is democracy. There are a lot of good contacts in business, society, and science. We can’t stop talking with each other, and we have to work on that. There will be a future for us as democracies and as partners in the future. Don’t be romantic about this. My impression in the last days here in Washington and talking with a lot of people is that in the United States a lot of people are worrying about the future of their democracy. The signal is that we are on their side, we want to have a good future, but we have to cover some tough challenges in the next months and years with this new government. I think this is a realistic view of the current situation.
Jeff Rathke
I want to thank you for spending time with us today here at the American-German Institute, for being here in person, and for your personal investment in that relationship. Hubertus Heil, thanks so much for being with us.
Hubertus Heil
Thank you very much.
Jeff Rathke
And we’ll look forward to having all of our listeners with us on the next episode of The Zeitgeist.
